The Slippery Slope Of Protecting “Honor”
Back when little girls began sporting t-shirts which read “Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them” I found myself wondering just what kind of mother would actually allow her daughter to wear such ignorant, hate-filled, sexist crap. Now I know.
It’s women like the one quoted by InstaPundit who are worried about allowing their daughters to attend sleepover parties at friends’ homes because their friend’s father — a male member not of the girl’s family — would be there.
What’s next? Shall we “protect” our daughters by making male non-family members remain in separate rooms, separated from our daughters by thick curtains or heavy screens? Shall we insist that our daughters not leave our homes unless accompanied by a male family member to ensure they aren’t molested?
That’s starting to sound horrifyingly familiar, isn’t it?
*never tease someone who is dieting* *never tease someone who is dieting* *never tease...
I hate those tshirts.
I found a babysitter once, a teenage girl, she and her Mom came to our house to talk and hopefully it would work out. We learned all about her straight A’s and extracurricular activities and once that got out of the way, we realized she was a fine kid and asked her to watch our then under a year old daughter.
The only ‘request’ the mom had – I drive her home, not my husband. I should have canceled the babysitting right then, but I didn’t. Instead I drove her home when we got back and never asked her to babysit again. If she can’t trust my husband with her daughter, why should I trust her daughter with mine? My DH said he understood but I was too mad to try again with her.
It is still about the money and “MALE” honor. Damaged goods can’t get married into wealthy families and a non-obedient female is an insult to the family males.
Hahaha, I have that exact tshirt. I bought it during my divorce from the Psycho X because I thought it was funny (and still do). I still wear it now and then, and if I’m wearing it when Frank and I go out, we laugh about it while we’re holding hands. I apparently don’t take it as seriously as y’all do.
Slightly off-topic, but at least it has to do with potentially offensive T-shirts…
About 10 years ago I picked up a couple of T-shirts (one for me and one for my Dad) which we relished wearing. I now need to get another for my son as I probably need to indoctrinate him along the non-PC path. I’ve gotten nothing but compliments on the shirt, and that’s saying something as I bought it in college — a pretty liberal college at that.
The logo — Fiminist chicks dig me
All this talk of offensive t-shirts made me want to rant. I tried to link to the individual post on my blog, but I think Kate’s got linkage in comments blocked.
Edit your post to include the trackback URI and link the entry. That doesn’t trigger the spam filter.
slaps forehead…
So some tell me that if a tee shirt that reads: “Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them” is considered harmless, then one saying “Girls are stupid, throw rocks at them” would be just as harmless, right? Right??
Wait… Instapundy is responding to such nonsense by teaching his daughter to shoot? Wha????
What a dumb reason. Will he arm her everytime she has to sleep in a strange place with a friend’s father present?
Really, when will this faux gun support meme of his end?
Seems like the scorned women of America are pushing their daughters through the back door of Islam.
Just remember, unisexers, once in… there’s no way out.
Tess:
I think that’s a reasonable request if the mother does not personally know your husband.
After an evening of dining and drinking, lots of guys think “flirting” with the babysitter with their now-loosened tongue is approprate foreplay for what’s waiting for them back at home.
If you’ve had a few drinks and she’s a mature otherwise responsible young woman, respect the mother’s wishes and don’t let the man drive her home alone after “date night”. Not all are, but many dads in returning home from the date are already halfway there to getting their groove on. If they don’t know how to converse with teenage girls (and it is an art, particularly with someone else’s daughter) many guys are way out of line on that drive home, even if it’s just in conversation and innuendos or questions about her life.
Think about it: in many cases, these dads are only fathers of infants. They might be in their 20s or 30s, and an attractive teenage might prove a temptation — even if it’s only in words. That makes for one mightly long drive home!
We realized she was a fine kid and asked her to watch our then under a year old daughter. The only ‘request’ the mom had – I drive her home, not my husband. I should have canceled the babysitting right then, but I didn’t. Instead I drove her home when we got back and never asked her to babysit again.
How old was your husband at the time? How old was the babysitter? If the mother in fact met your husband, perhaps something in that initial meeting gave her cause to make the request? Is he a joker? Typically, men drink more than women at weddings, or out for dinner, etc. Maybe she didn’t trust your husband seemed mature enough at the time to place his daughter’s safety solely in his hands…
I’m glad you made your decision and moved on. Likely, the daughter found plenty of other babysitting job too, and the mother did not have to worry about her daughter getting home safely. Betcha you think differently about things when you’re daughter is a teen… Look at Insty: he’s so worried about men, that’s the reason he gives in teaching her to shoot. Not overprotective at all there, or planting false ideas about what response she has when those seemingly innocuous comments come her way.
Is it only me that is reminded of the Chris Elliott SNL skit from this discussion?
“Is that a Zima?!”
Too obscure?
Kate notices a slippery slope….
…
See, once again it’s back to generalizing about MEN as if all guys behave the same way, all men are prone to misbehavior, all women are just one drink (by a man) away from being victimized.
Bull.
The first sentence was the only one with which I agree, but it should have been written to indicate that parents shouldn’t let their kids sleep over at a home where they don’t personally know BOTH parents.
I’m sure that the commenters who think this is perfectly understandable – especially the clown who thinks most husbands “have their groove on” and simply can’t help hitting on a teen – would be equally understanding if a Dad asked that a woman not drive the boys to soccer practice, what with all of the cougars out there.
Sheesh.
“Typically, men…”
Well, OK. Hey , it’s for the teenagers.
Typically African American males commit rape and crimes of violence at a higher rate than others. So, asking my neighbors to disinvite any black males from their teen party, or banning black males from dating my daughters is not racism. It’s just being a caring, loving parent and neighbor. Correct??
Actually when I drove a sitter home I always had one of my kids go with me. If they were already asleep, my wife drove her home. Why? She was probably a great girl, but if on the way back she turned to me and said “gimme $1000 or I’ll say you attacked me”, whom do you think would be believed? The 15 yo girl or the 30 something man?
I found myself consciously not being in a situation without a ‘witness’. Paranoid? Unfair? Perhaps, but all it takes in one allegation and your life can be ruined, no matter true or not (read, Duke Rape Hoax).
Sad but true.
Wow, you guys conclude that she might be worried that he will get flirty because he had too much to drink. Wouldn’t the concern then be about someone drunk driving her daughter home?
She’s not worried about drinking. She’s a bigot. In this world of gender equality, women are just as able as men at anything, including being sexist pigs.
I’m a retired cop. Before you let your daughters spend a sleepover at the very least run the sleepover’s host father’s name thru the sex offenders list in your area.
Trust me, its not an unreasonable suggestion
anonymous,
Speaking as a man I can assure you that men have no interest in foreplay. They only view it as an unfortuante prerequisite for sex. I think you are projecting the feminine idea of “getting in the mood” on men. The only reason a man would flirt with a teenage girl he is driving home, is if he were trying to have sex with that girl.
If the mother of the babysitter thought there was a possibility that the father had intentions to sleep with her daughter she should not let her daughter babysit for them period, regardless of who is driving her daughter home. As explained above, I find it highly unlikely that the father would intentionally try to flirt with a teenage girl. Finally, if the father does make an unintenional, inappropriate comment at some point, it is perfectly reasonable to expect a teenage girl to be able to handle it by herself or by asking her parents about it later. Part of growing up is learning that people sometimes say inappropriate things and figuring out ways to deal with it civily and appropriately (this means outside of the judicial system).
If the mother constantly has her daughter at defcon 5 over any men she may encounter in her life, she is going to grow up to be a paranoid, antisocial, misanthrope. This will make her future life unneccesarily miserable, along with the lives of any men who have to deal with her in the future.
I’m sorry, but that made me laugh so much that I just had to reprint it.
But will no doubt ensure her a long, successful life as a Womyn’s Studies scholar.
It’s much funnier if you see that comment coming from you first in the sidebar. I had to click going “WTF???”.
Mark, please either remove your head from your rectal cavity or quit speaking for your gender. Either will do.
wg,
I will stop speaking for men once someone takes it from me the same way I earned it… Beer Pong Tourney Champion.
Hmmm… maybe I am missing something here. Why don’t you just put the babysitter into a cab? Solves everyone’s problems, no? Either that, or tell her to call her own folks to come get her.
As to dealing with boys and my own daughters, I just make certain that I’m stting on my front porch when they arrive to pick her up. I get to meet them, get a phone number, licence plate, car model, physical description, etc
In return, they get to see me cleaning my shotgun…….
Amazing how nice so many of these young men are today
Respects,
Jeez, you gun control nuts need to lighten up and try to find that sense of humor – if you ever had one in the first place.
Folks, I’d recommend you take the time to address your comment to the person to whom you’re intending to respond.
I, for instance, am not the woman with the problem of letting my daughter grab a ride home with a man after she’s babysat his own child. (I think it’d be rather hypocritical of me to take that stance, assuming he’s a sober driver.) If anything, I’d pity the poor guy: my daughter would talk his ear off and bore him to death, thus proving to be the BEST form of birth control out there.
Nor am I a gun control nut. I own several. I like to use them. Possibly too much so.
Gwedd,
Your comment reminded me of one of my daughter’s less than ideal boyfriends. After he showed interest in learning to shoot I took him to a skeet range, instructed him in the basics and watched for a while as he struggled valiantly to break a clay. I then picked up my shotgun and after breaking quite a few targets in a row asked him “If that target travels at 60 MPH – what chance do you think you’ll have?”
See, once again it’s back to generalizing about MEN as if all guys behave the same way, all men are prone to misbehavior, all women are just one drink (by a man) away from being victimized. Bull.
It’s not generalizing. She MET your husband personally. Something from that meeting made her make the request. Perhaps when your daughter is a teen you’ll better understand — like Jim in Texas above who offers some common sense advice.
Again, what age was your husband compared to this babysitter. If you have an infant, is it possible he is still in his 20s or 30s?
Believe it or not, many family guys do flirt with the babysitter on the way home. To some 20- or 30-year-old men who are new fathers (no teen daughters of their own yet), such cute comments or questions aimed at the teen are just fun. Again, after a night out — many men are looser with their talk. And many men ARE attracted to teen girls, their babysitters. If you think everyone suddenly turns into a gentleman the day his child is born, really, think again. We all take precautions with our children because we protect our own. Maybe she was not fearing kidnapping or rape, but the more mature conversation that can occur in the car after the guy’s been out relaxing for the night.
That mother made the right call in allowing her child to sit for you with one precondition. Perhaps she has valid concerns, is overly protective, or has a personal reason for not wanting her daughter driven home by your husband.
You made the right call in not letting her sit if you thought your husband was being personally offended.
Get back to us when your child is a high achieving teen and let us know if you’re comfortable letting her in a car with every man you just met. Maybe that girl should be sitting for close friends and relatives only. Still, like Jim in Texas referenced, perhaps in this day and age, that mother is using her best judgment to raise her daughter. Funny how everybody is for profiling except when your own loved ones don’t immediately get the free clearance pass.
FROM VK: Again, let me remind those of you in the slow lane to pay more attention to who wrote what. My husband, for instance, has never been in a position to drive a babysitter home. That comment was left by someone else. So PLEASE direct your response to the appropriate comment author, m’kay?
So, asking my neighbors to disinvite any black males from their teen party, or banning black males from dating my daughters is not racism. It’s just being a caring, loving parent and neighbor. Correct??
If it’s not your party to host, keep your mouth shut about who is invited to visit your neighbors. That’s common sense to mind your own business.
If you don’t want your underage daughter to date black men, absolutely that is your perogative as a parent to assess who she dates. If you think the man is more advanced sexually than your daughter, no matter his race, or if you think the man and your child have different values that you do not want her exposed to, you’d be a damn fool to allow polical correctness or concerns that she’ll think you a bigot to overrule your instinct.
On the other hand, if you’ve met an African American man and believe he is worthy of dating your daughter, treating her respectfully and obeying her limits, then you would be a damned fool to let his skin tone alone interfere.
I think as you begin to treat people as individuals, and stop worrying about offending by sex or race, you will make better judgment calls. That is what I’m saying about the babysitter’s mother: she met the father, and for whatever reason, requested he not drive her home alone. That’s not sex discrimination, and no parent is required to let an underage child spend time alone with a man because she fears offending him, or his wife.
For the record, Anonymous, it was Tess whose had the teenage sitter whose mom said she didn’t want Tess’s DH to drive the sitter home.
There’s no indication in Tess’s comment that the sitter’s mom had met DH and then grew uncomfortable for whatever reason.
Details, perhaps, but details matter.
Sorry, my comments are directed at Tess, not Kate.
Kate, here’s one for you:
Since you never met Tess’s husband and the babysitter’s mom did, do you honestly believe that all fathers are gentlemen and respectful to the babysitter on the way home late at night?
Why would you laugh off her concerns about her teen daughter because you are so confident that no men ever enjoy the flirtatious banter before heading home to make love to the wife? Mark’s comment was funny, but untrue for ALL men. I stand by my original remark that if you’re not experienced talking to teen girls and you don’t know this one very well, even in the best of circumstances that could be a very uncomfortable ride home, which her mother perhaps was trying to avoid. There are men who are new dads and have no experience with kids, and can only relate to young women through their own dating and college days. They’re not so innocent as the teen girl with their words and comments — she’s at a totally different place that the man.
How many adults do you know who ask kids, “So, you got a boyfriend yet?” or otherwise make what they think are friendly inquiries. I know a lot of men who do this, in kidding around trying to make conversation way, and it’s fine when you know the man. Other times, even when it’s all done in innocence, it flops and the kids gets quiet and sully.
Re. Details:
Oh, so you think that makes a better case then? That the mom should have green-lighted her daughter driving home with a man the mother had never met just for the sake of a $5 or $8 per hour job?
That makes the story even more amusing to me. We’re a nation of put-upon Ward Cleavers, it seems, and once a man becomes a father he’s automatically “safe”. Lolol!
The way you jumped in to defend Tess’ husband from the charges that he ever could be unfit confused me.
I think you’re nuts to believe you have some special insight into this situation that would overrule the mother’s judgment then.
Why do you say it’s BULL that some fathers do behave badly with teenage girls and a parent might have good reason not to want their child alone with a man they barely know? Are you really that naive?
Mark,
You’re on.
I’d also like to point out something in general here – mind you, this isn’t directed at anybody, so take it for what it’s worth.
The mother that requested that the father of the family not be the one to drive her daughter home may have had reasons having absolutely nothing to do with the family she’s sitting for. Perhaps the girl’s father is a raging alcoholic liable to hurl accusations or heavy objects at a man dropping off his teenage daughter. Maybe the teenage daughter, the mother, or another person in the family has been a victim of molestation in the past, so the mother is extra-vigilant. Maybe there’s an unknown guy in the neighborhood that’s been trying to pick up teen girls for nefarious purposes, and she wants to avoid any accusations of wrongdoing. The potential reasons are endless.
She could also just be really neurotic and unreasonable….but without further information, it’s impossible to say.
Red’s oldest is nearly 14, and babysits for family and friends all the time. If I were in the position of dropping her off, and I felt uncomfortable for any reason at the thought of the man in that family bringing her home afterwards, I wouldn’t hesitate to either come and get her myself or make the same request that the mother in this case did, because I tend to trust my intuition. Politeness be damned, we’re talking about a kid’s safety here…and it would be the same for any adult working with one of my girls. I also wouldn’t allow her to babysit for a couple I didn’t know and trust, however.
umm.. maybe the girl is a flirt.
If the mother wants to avoid allowing her daughter to be alone with an adult male, this may not be an indictment of the father.
My job involves interacting w/ lots of teens – about half of whom are girls 16 to 18. Some girls enjoy flirting with older guys, and don’t differentiate between older as in 22 and older as in 42.
For instance, there’s a math teacher at my school who is a fit, good looking, 40 year old. Some of the things that I’ve heard girls say about him are pretty shocking – comments of a sexual nature. Teen girls aren’t all shrinking violets. He’s been propositioned several times in the 2 years that I’ve worked with him.
But to the point of overprotective mothers and womens’ expectations that men seek to molest adolescent girls.
I suspect that some of this is a rationalization of the resentment that many women feel towards men for their tendency to prefer younger women.
If the “young dads like to flirt with teenage girls and ask them inappropriate questions” Anonymous is a man, he’s an a**hole who’s projecting his own a**holery on the rest of us. If it’s a woman, she should really look into why she hangs around with so many a**holes.
If saying that the majority of men, especially family men, do not act that way is “naive”, my response is that the opposite outlook is neurotically paranoid. So, again, either find out why you’re such an a**hole and fix it, or find out why you’re so attracted to a**holes and fix that. Just stop slandering the rest of us with your own issues.
And putting a name on the posts would be great, too. Makes things a little easier to respond to.
Here’s another thing that ticks me off – anyone with a functioning cortex knows how harmful it is to a child (and society) when male father-figures are absent in a child’s life. Given that, it seems men should be more respected and less suspected. There’s a massive disconnect here.
“There are men who are new dads and have no experience with kids, and can only relate to young women through their own dating and college days. They’re not so innocent as the teen girl with their words and comments — she’s at a totally different place that the man.”
You really have no clue about teenage girls today… they are incredibly aggressive. I am a teacher and I would make sure that I am not alone with a teenage girl.
I hear you, Bert. With today’s atmosphere of paranoia, false accusations and “repressed memories”, my policy is never to be alone with a woman or child. They have nothing to fear from me. I have everything to fear from them.
If one of the girls in my Sunday School class (they’re all 8, the age when cutesy t-shirts take over from pretty dresses with flowers on them in the “fun to wear” category) wore a shirt with that phrase on it (sorry, referencing the original post here,) I’d probably have to go into a detailed discussion of what it means to stone someone.
I don’t think that people who are worried about their daughters being in the same household as an adult male are that concerned about their daughters being sexually aggressive, though the driving-daughters-home-from-babysitting thing could be more on the money. None of the families I babysat for ever let me be driven home by a man alone, more out of concern for everyone’s reputation — the kind of reputation that kept responsible young people from going to “lover’s lane” and teenage girls getting married or going to live with extended family in another state when they got pregnant — than because anyone thought anything might happen. My church is slowly moving to replacing all classroom doors with doors with windows in them for much the same reason. It protects the reputations of everyone concerned.
And the people who are worried about their daughters sleeping in the same home with an adult man probably aren’t the same absolutely tacky, icky people who buy pants with words on the rear end for their daughters (I suspect that the girls with obnoxious sayings on their fronts are quite often also the girls with “SWEET” or “PRINCESS” on their rears.) One behavior is an attempt to control sexuality and adhere to a standard of public propriety, admittedly in a “building fences around the law” kind of way — the other most certainly isn’t.
I hate to say it but this was probably a good idea… mainly to protect the Dad from the babysitter. These days men are guilty until proven innocent. I make it a point to never be alone with a woman unless I know her extremely well. Even then I’m leery. Sadly this is how men have to think these days to protect ourselves from predatory women.